jonathan dough

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Posts by jonathan dough

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  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

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  jonathan dough

  Still more:

  In accordance with the vast majority of translations, the inspired writer of Hebrews 1:8, 9 specifically referred to the Son as God. Chapter 1 is devoted to distinguishing Christ from angels and identifying Him as God the Son which should leave no doubt that Christ is not an angel as the Jehovah’s Witnesses preach.

  [B]ut as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Your kingdom; You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because this God, your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above your companions.” (Hebrews 1: 8, 9 Green’s Literal Translation)

  According to the Catholic New American Bible “[T]he application of the name “God” to the Son derives from the preexistence mentioned in vv 2-3;…” (NAB notes 1:8-12).

  …in these last days, he spoke to us through a Son,
  whom he made heir of all things
  and through whom he created the universe,
  who is the refulgence of his glory,
  the very imprint of his being,
  and who sustains all things by his mighty word.

  When he had accomplished purification from sins,
  he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high, … (NAB)

  First, at verse 3 a literal translation says that Christ is “the express image of His essence” (Green’s Literal Translation; “imprint of His being” NAB). Here, “image” (Greek charaktar) denotes that the Son is “literally equal to God,” of whose essence he is the imprint. It is the fact of complete similarity which this Word stresses” (Strong and Vine’s, 269). Clearly, Christ could not have been created and most certainly was not an angel because either way He would not be literally equal to God, but much less.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#34
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

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  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  Yes, there really is a mountain of evidence and this just scratches the surface.

  Highly significant is Thomas’ use of “Lord” and the manner in which “Lord” is tied directly to God. Here, Lord refers to God in the supreme sense because there can only be “one Lord” according to Paul at 1 Corinthians 8:6, 7 and Ephesians 4:5. Although Lord (Greek kurios) has a wide application and can apply to men as a title of honor, such a lower meaning of Lord was eventually superceded by the higher meaning after Christ’s resurrection, and this is the meaning employed by Doubting Thomas.

  (11) His purpose did not become clear to the disciples until after His resurrection, and the revelation of His Deity consequent thereon. Thomas, when he realized the significance of the presence of a mortal wound in the body of a living man, immediately joined with it the absolute title of Deity, saying, “my Lord and my God,” Jn 20:28. Thereafter, except in Acts 10:4 and Rev. 7:14, there is no record that kurios was ever again used by believers in addressing any save God and the Lord Jesus; cf Acts 2:47 with 4:29, 30.

  (12) How soon and how completely the lower meaning had been superseded is seen in Peter’s declaration in his first sermon after the resurrection, “God hath made Him - Lord,” Acts 2:36, and in the house of Cornelius, “He is Lord of all,” Acts 10:36, cf. Deut 10:14; Mt 11:25; Acts 17:24. (Strong and Vine’s, 147)

  “The full significance of this association of Jesus with God under the one appellation, “Lord,” is seen when it is remembered that these men belonged to the only monotheistic race in the world. To associate with the Creator one known to be a creature, however exalted, though possible to Pagan philosophers, was quite impossible to a Jew” (ibid., 147, 148 (16).

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#35
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  One more:

  Thomas answered Jesus saying "My Lord and my God."

  Thomas was engaged in a direct conversation with Jesus, not God in heaven, when he uttered those words. He answered Jesus who replied to him in return and nothing in those verses remotely suggests Thomas was speaking to the heavenly Father or referring to Him.

  Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing.” Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:26-29 RSV)

  Third, calling out “My God” in astonishment would have amounted to taking God’s name in vain and blasphemy in violation of Exodus 20:7 and Leviticus 24:16, crimes punishable by death.

  Fourth, Thomas was fully cognizant of the many miracles Jesus performed, in addition to Christ’s implicit and explicit references to himself as God. It truly stretches credulity to think that Thomas thought of Jesus as nothing more or less than a resurrected man. Casting all doubt aside, Thomas knew that Jesus was his Lord and his God. His answer to Christ “forms a literary inclusion with the first verse of the gospel: “and the Word was God” (NAB notes John 20, 28).

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#35
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  And another:

  The Messiah is described at Micah 5:2 as being from eternity (Hebrew olam), hence without beginning. Green’s Literal Translation of Micah 5:2 states:

  And you, Bethlehem Ephratah, being least among the thousands of Judah, out of you he shall come forth to Me, to become ruler in Israel; and His goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.

  “Olam” means “eternity; remotest time; perpetuity, i.e., the vanishing point; gen, time out of mind (past or future), always, ever, everlasting, perpetual” (Strong and Vine’s, 205).

  Reference to Christ’s prior eternal existence is also found at Proverbs 8:22 where many commentators equate Wisdom with Christ.

  Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of His way, from then, before His works I was set up from everlasting (Hebrew olam), from the beginning, before the earth ever was (Proverbs 8:22 Green’s Literal Translation).

  “Wisdom is of divine origin. It is here represented as a being which existed before all things (22-26) and concurred with God when he planned and executed the creation of the universe, …” (NAB notes 8,22-31).

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#33
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  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

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  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  And another: Jesus is the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, the Almighty.

  The heavenly resurrected Jesus is identified as Almighty God and the “First and the Last” because there can be only one “First and Last” and one “Alpha and Omega” and Jesus assumed both titles.

  In the Book of Revelation Jesus can be identified as the Almighty and the “Alpha and the Omega,” titles used to identify God. Even if the Jehovah's Witnesses were correct in stating that Jesus is never specifically called the Almighty, which they claim is a title reserved for God (Reasoning, 414), that title can readily be ascribed to Jesus by logically piecing together selected verses.

  For instance, both Jesus at Revelation 1:17, 18 and God as the Alpha and Omega at Revelation 22:13 are referred to as “the First and the Last.” Therefore, because Jesus and the Almighty are both “the First and the Last,“ Jesus must be the Almighty who is the Alpha and Omega.

  Also, the Alpha and the Omega (God) of Revelation 1:8 is identified as the Almighty, and because Jesus is also the Alpha and the Omega, Jesus is the Almighty, a title identifying Jehovah (Yahweh) at Genesis 17:1. Jesus was, and is, God. The logical train of thought is illustrated by quoting the actual verses.

  a) Jesus is the First and the Last: “Fear not, I am the First and the Last, and the living one; I died, and behold I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades.” (Revelation 1:17, 18)

  b) The Alpha and the Omega (God) is also the First and the last: “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end.” (Revelation 22:12, 13)

  c) Therefore, Jesus must also be the Alpha and Omega, God.

  d) The Alpha and the Omega is the Almighty: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)

  e) Therefore, not only is Jesus the Alpha and Omega but also the Almighty, all powerful, omnipotent.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#23
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonathan dough

  Yes, and another reason Jesus could not have been a created angel and was and is God.

  One of Christ’s disciples, Stephen, when stoned to death, cried out “Lord, Jesus, receive my spirit” (Acts 7:59). No doubt Stephen was familiar with Ecclesiastes 12:7 “…and the spirit returns to God who gave it” (RSV, Green’s Literal Translation). Stephen was not beseeching an angel to take back his spirit, but the Word who was, and is, God the Son, and who gave Stephen his spirit and to whom it would return.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#35
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonathan dough

  another reason:

  When Thomas said "My Lord and my God," he used the exact words that David used at Psalm 35:23 with reference to God, writing, "Awake, be vigilant in my defense, in my cause, My God and my Lord," (RSV, NAB, KJV and Green's Literal Translation). "Lord" here is translated from the Hebrew adonai used exclusively of God. Thomas would never have used these same words when addressing the risen Christ if he were just a man. The Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation changes verse 23 to read in part, "My God, even Jehovah."

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-7.html#35
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  jonathan dough

  Here's yet another reason why Jesus was, and is, God and not just a mere man and created angel as the JWs teach.

  There is only one Savior who grants eternal salvation, and both the divine Person of Christ and God are that Savior.

  God states at Isaiah 43:11 that “Besides me there is no savior.” Yet Jesus is also called our Savior at Titus 1:4, and again at Titus 3:6. Read together it is reasonable to conclude that since Jesus is a Christian’s savior, yet there is no savior besides God, then Jesus must be God. The Jehovah's Witnesses counter that just because a judge in Israel by the name of Othniel is also called savior (or deliverer) (Judges 3:9) that similarity does not make Othniel Jehovah (Reasoning, 413).

  Well, of course it doesn’t, but the Jehovah's Witnesses are making the same mistake by failing to ask “What kind of savior?” The unique savior of Isaiah 43:11 and Titus 1:4, 3:6 is a savior on a much grander scale, on an altogether higher spiritual and religious plane; a Savior who saves in supernatural ways unknown to men, who knows and predicts future events, (Isaiah 43:9), an only savior (Acts 4:10, 12) whose salvation is complete (Colossians 2:10), powerful (Jude 24, 25), authoritative (John 10:18) and universal (1 Timothy 4:10). This one-of-a-kind savior saves from wrath (Romans 5:9), sin (John 1:29) and death through the gift of eternal life (John 11:25, 26). Any parallels with Othniel are seriously misplaced. There is only one kind of “savior” at issue here, not secular saviors, deliverers, kings or judges who have made their mark on history.

  The Jehovah's Witnesses counter with Jude 25 and reason that God is a savior only through Jesus Christ (Reasoning, 413). Jude 25, however, is a doxology, a hymn or words of praise directed to God the savior through Jesus Christ:

  … to the only wise God, our Savior, be glory and majesty and might and authority, even now and forever, Amen. (Jude 25 Green’s Literal Translation)

  Jude is not saying that God is our only savior through Jesus as though he were some hollow tube. Christ offered up His life out of His own volition and he saves directly by Him, by His shed blood. Interestingly, a literal translation of Jude 25 makes no mention of Christ at all which lends credence to the argument that Jude 25 is a doxology directing praise to God, not a statement on Christ’s role as savior, as some type of conduit. Acts 4:12 makes it very clear that “…there is salvation in no one else… (RSV, Green’s Literal Translation, NKJV),” in Christ. Salvation in Christ and through Christ are not mutually exclusive terms.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#25
• 
  204

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

  by jonathan dough in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

  scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

  the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  jonathan dough

  This only applies to Christ. Where as designs is suggesting it applies to everything in the universe or creation.

  I understand and agree. That God is "in" everything is stretching semantics.
• 
  16

  Is there any hope for the uneducated Jw's?

  by highdose in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was thinking of the ones who would say to me " i don't like to read/study" " i'm not really academinc".

  are these people doomed to blindly follow the gb forever, thinking that all the study has been done for them and they will just belive what they are told?.

  is it mainly the smart thinking people who leave?.

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  jonathan dough

  Some of the dumbest people I know are PhD smart.

  And some of the wisest never finished high school.

  If someone is "smart" enough to read and believe WT literature and based on that logic join up, they can employ the same smarts to un-join.

  The basics really aren't that complicated. The complication arises when the WTS stuck their dirty little fingers in there and turned everything upside down. Most don't realize it but much of the JW arguments were written by lawyers. Hence the unnecessary complexity.

  Smarts don't get you saved. Grace does, and faith.

  http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html